Rings of Power

[Radhruin_EU]

I think you're right, but the truly casual viewers have no idea how the 2nd Age unfolds.

I think it's to maintain an element of suspense for the people who already know the canonical plot outline that they add mysterious stuff like the Stranger, Adar, the cult, etc.

Of course, they also have a role in the plot. Adar already does, the Stranger and cultists not so much - yet - but it's clear they will eventually.

Endless mysteries about who characters are, their relationships to others, their purpose and motivations, and what things represent and what they're for doesn't make for suspense, though. They're just there to obfuscate what little plot there is - it isn't real, earned suspense where the the audience knows the situation and the stakes but it isn't clear which way it's going to turn, it's just keeping the situation as vague as possible by withholding things.

[Swanee]

I think you're right, but the truly casual viewers have no idea how the 2nd Age unfolds.

I think it's to maintain an element of suspense for the people who already know the canonical plot outline that they add mysterious stuff like the Stranger, Adar, the cult, etc.

Of course, they also have a role in the plot. Adar already does, the Stranger and cultists not so much - yet - but it's clear they will eventually.

Exactly. This show is not for the established fan base. It’s an attempt to make money by drawing in new ones. You gain more fans through visual media than through written works. The show creators provide some fan service through Easter eggs, but they’re more than willing to twist established lore in order to draw viewers. Even the call backs are to Jackson’s movies instead of Tolkien’s writing showing they are relying on previous visual works to help sell their product.

[TearMaker]

Hardly. Tolkien doesn't repeatedly present mysteries and then keep on withholding information just to keep you guessing. Have you got a specific example of him supposedly doing this, or is this just vague hand-waving?

In the latest episode of RoP, we have 'Feminem' and her entourage presented to us with no context whatsoever, no dialogue, no nothing. In other words, introducing three new characters and giving us absolutely nothing to go on except that they look like cultists or something and they're seemingly interested in the Stranger somehow and that 'Feminem' is real intense and creepy-looking, Kubrick stare and all. So instead of any actual plot to chew over, we're supposed to sit there and imagine one for ourselves. It's being cryptic for the sake of being cryptic, and they do that all the time. Who and what is Adar? Don't know, because just because he looks like an Elf doesn't mean he is one. Why do the Orcs call him 'Father'? Don't know. Why does he show compassion for the Orcs? Don't know. What's his relationship with Sauron? Don't know. What does he mean when he says he isn't a god 'yet'? Don't know. Why does he want the sword-hint MacGuffin? Don't know, except maybe that it's a key to something (a bit of info that Arondir pulled out of his butt as he had no means of knowing that, so there's no payoff from that at all). What's it the key to? Don't know. What happens if it's used? Don't know. So what are the stakes in all of that? Don't know.

If LOTR had been written like that it'd have spent the whole of the first book just figuring out what Bilbo's ring was even for, and the Black Riders would be complete mystery figures whose identity and motives were unknown. We wouldn't know why they wanted it or anything else connected with it so we wouldn't know the stakes. Meanwhile, in the real LOTR Tolkien told us exactly what the stakes were in the second chapter of FOTR, and Gandalf knew all that because (a) he's a Wizard, so it had been previously established that knowing stuff like that is his stock in trade and (b) behind the scenes he'd spent years researching it until he was absolutely sure that what they had could only be the One Ring.

Now I understand your issue... Is it because you don't know?

Frankly this makes me like you more, because nobody likes a know all

[wispsong]

Exactly. This show is not for the established fan base. It’s an attempt to make money by drawing in new ones. You gain more fans through visual media than through written works. The show creators provide some fan service through Easter eggs, but they’re more than willing to twist established lore in order to draw viewers. Even the call backs are to Jackson’s movies instead of Tolkien’s writing showing they are relying on previous visual works to help sell their product.

They could have easily pleased the fans and draw in new ones staying closer to the material. I can't believe half the stuff they come up with and just shake my head in disbelief.

[Radhruin_EU]

Now I understand your issue... Is it because you don't know?

It's that they shower it with umpteen unknowns on purpose and not only string them out as long as they can but keep adding new ones to keep people guessing endlessly, to mask the lack of real plot.

Little has really happened in five whole episodes and there's been no meaningful character development, but there's just so much mystery!

[Flaxie]

And yet, despite the complaints, it looks like you're still watching. That's all the sponsors care
about, which is all the producers care about, which is all the writers care about.

[Radhruin_EU]

And yet, despite the complaints, it looks like you're still watching. That's all the sponsors care
about, which is all the producers care about, which is all the writers care about.

Oh, so that must be why Amazon have been trying to suppress bad reviews, I suppose?

[TesalionLortus]

And yet, despite the complaints, it looks like you're still watching. That's all the sponsors care
about, which is all the producers care about, which is all the writers care about.

They care about spreading piracy then? I doubt anyone who dislikes their treatment of Tolkien is paying for Amazon subscription..... also, there were some piracy comparisons made and it sounds like the number of pirated RoP episodes is only decreasing... so people don't even want to pirate this show. Imagine THAT.

[Stigger32]

I have played Lotro almost since launch, and I love this game. But we all know its one unsub away from being discontinued, and Im afraid the amazon tv-serie is going to be the haybale that broke the camels back.
Does anyone else have any feelings about this?

Errr no.

If anything the Rings Of Power will ignite new interest in Lotro. Also it will legitimise future content set in the distant past. As obviously Middle-earth Enterprises (formerly known as Tolkien Enterprises) have given the green light to Amazon producing the series.

I can only see this as a win-win for us.

Oh and BTW. I LUUURV the new RoP series! Finally Amazon got something right!

[Radhruin_EU]

Errr no.

If anything the Rings Of Power will ignite new interest in Lotro. Also it will legitimise future content set in the distant past. As obviously Middle-earth Enterprises (formerly known as Tolkien Enterprises) have given the green light to Amazon producing the series.

I can only see this as a win-win for us.

Oh and BTW. I LUUURV the new RoP series! Finally Amazon got something right!

I'm starting to think that sometimes the forums somehow get posts from some alternate dimension where RoP was actually any good...

Meanwhile, here on Earth-1218, RoP is a cautionary tale showing why you probably *shouldn't* try to do the distant past of Middle-earth if you haven't got the full rights to it. (Or at least that if you do, you'd better have some exceptionally good writers who know what they're doing).

[Echoweaver]

My guess is that Adar is one of the elves Morgoth twisted and tortured in the process of creating the orcs. That would explain the paternal-like relationship between him and the orcs and the fact that he's distorted/disfigured for an elf.

[TesalionLortus]

My guess is that Adar is one of the elves Morgoth twisted and tortured in the process of creating the orcs. That would explain the paternal-like relationship between him and the orcs and the fact that he's distorted/disfigured for an elf.

Fan fact: it was confirmed (before the premiere) Adar was supposed to look more like an orc, much more gruesome, and it would have been the only really well-done and lore accurate thing they would have done. But not even that was possible... because Amazon execs said they wanted a more regal look for Adar, you know, like a hot elf. This clearly illustrates the kind of meddling that's going on behind the scenes too.

[Milliebobbie]

I'm starting to think that sometimes the forums somehow get posts from some alternate dimension where RoP was actually any good...

Meanwhile, here on Earth-1218, RoP is a cautionary tale showing why you probably *shouldn't* try to do the distant past of Middle-earth if you haven't got the full rights to it. (Or at least that if you do, you'd better have some exceptionally good writers who know what they're doing).

At this point I've convinced myself that those making Tolkien-based content do not see it as having enough mass appeal in it's original form so they rewrite and what we get is garbage like the RoP abomination. After the first 15 min of episode 1 I wanted to chuck the TV out the window. There's a handful of good actors in this but they're given pretty awful material to work with. Given what AGS has produced game-wise I think the blame can be lain at the feet of the creative directors (or lack-of-creative directors) at Amazon who just have to meddle.

Rule #1 of being a good exec is to hire the best people and let them run.

[DanteIL]

Personally I am enjoying the show so far. Yes, it is moving a little slow and I am waiting for more things to come together, but it is holding my interest and it certainly scratches that high-fantasy itch for me. I can understand why people who are invested in the lore are upset, but I find it interesting to have another perspective on Tolkien's world.

[Milliebobbie]

Personally I am enjoying the show so far. Yes, it is moving a little slow and I am waiting for more things to come together, but it is holding my interest and it certainly scratches that high-fantasy itch for me. I can understand why people who are invested in the lore are upset, but I find it interesting to have another perspective on Tolkien's world.

"Another perspective on Tolkien's world" is being rather generous. A complete rewrite and fabrication using the lore Tolkien created is I think more accurate. Nothing wrong with enjoying the show, however, it is important to give to Tolkien what is his and not excuse the abusers for their transgression. The dilution of the lore only leads to cheapening of it and degradation over time until it becomes cartoon-like and few appreciate it's depth.

As penance read the Silmarillion cover to cover.

[elvenes]

they are obligated by contract to not change any existing lore. What they are doing is adding their own stuff to it, that's it. Like lotro's been doing for 15 years... geez some people are literally rabid over this tv show, like their life depends on ranting about it day in and day out, and Tolkien's ghost pays their bills, it's so funny to me... guess they got nothing better to do in life than lose their heads over a tv show

[Radhruin_EU]

they are obligated by contract to not change any existing lore.

Nope. Where did you get that from? The only thing we were told is that they weren't allowed to kill off any characters who'd still be around in LOTR. As it is, it didn't take long at all for it to be obvious that they'd made sweeping changes and it was going to be Middle-earth in name only.

[Swanee]

they are obligated by contract to not change any existing lore. What they are doing is adding their own stuff to it, that's it. Like lotro's been doing for 15 years... geez some people are literally rabid over this tv show, like their life depends on ranting about it day in and day out, and Tolkien's ghost pays their bills, it's so funny to me... guess they got nothing better to do in life than lose their heads over a tv show

Soooo……how does this explain the lost Silmaril in a tree idea? That is not “adding their own stuff”, it’s a blatant change in lore.

Just my view on what has people so angry about this show; There was a chance to revisit the world that so many hold very dear. They have spent decades reading the works of Tolkien. The visual representation of certain areas and characters can, understandably, be different in each other’s imagination but the changing of facts, concepts and the core of the original works is just plain disrespectful. I grew up a die hard Star Wars fan and when Disney in one fell swoop wiped the canon clean it was like a physical slap to the face. They in a sense said F-U to all the fans that kept that story alive, just so it was easier to make money. That’s how this series feels. It’s too hard to write within the established canon so we’re just going to ignore it. Long time Tolkien fans are not the target audience. It’s about hooking the short-attention woohoo-CGI fans.

PJ changed the stories from the books but he at least made call backs to the books by giving important lines, from deleted content, to other characters. What has this show done? It doesn't reference the literature because it’s using the PJ’s movies for a foundation. That’s like attributing the actual Big Bang Theory to the TV show. Why are fans upset? Because you just came in and kicked over the sandcastle they’ve spent 40 years working on, all because you think your idea is better. It’s inconsiderate and disrespectful to the community, and to the Professor. Instead of bashing the long time fans for how they feel, try putting yourself in their shoes concerning something you love.

[TesalionLortus]

it is holding my interest and it certainly scratches that high-fantasy itch for me. I can understand why people who are invested in the lore are upset, but I find it interesting to have another perspective on Tolkien's world.

That right here is the problem. We should have gotten a great genuine original show that scratches that high-fantasy itch then... not a chaotic pretentious puzzle box with pieces that don't entirely fit, a bit of cheap tropes, a bit of weak substitution instead of good writing, a bit of easter eggs, a bit of names from Tolkien, a bit of strong agenda, and so on... and it's not "another perspective on Tolkien" if it's just utterly ignoring the Appendices and larger Tolkien lore. Another perspective would be telling a Tolkien story but fill in the blanks in interesting, creative ways that belong and make *some* important choices when translating onto the screen (even if some are controversial). That's what PJ did. That's what LOTRO does. Amazon lacks the core of what "adaptation" and "another perspective" means - the story it's supposedly adapting. 80% is original content or not-so-thinly-disguised repurposed things from PJ, and that should NOT be considered a "norm" and "OK." Otherwise I fear for the future of adaptations... not to mention good storytelling. It has turned into a loud affair you are going to hear about, whether you like it or not, because it's not just something most of us never heard about - this time they've done this with Tolkien and they've been VERY un-subtle about it.

geez some people are literally rabid over this tv show, like their life depends on ranting about it day in and day out, and Tolkien's ghost pays their bills, it's so funny to me... guess they got nothing better to do in life than lose their heads over a tv show

If you love something, you may write a lot about it and express it somehow (for example, I've written this long list of unfinished plot therads of LOTRO here on the forum). If you dislike something or hate it for what it is, in a similar fashion you may express your discontent and talk about it in equal measure. I don't mean just rage talk and name calling, just decent, constructive talk. You're not obligated to be silent and bow in silence, you are not supposed to feel bad for saying things. It's expected. It's *normal*

I'll tell you something though - with people who supposedly like RoP (or love... ugh) I have yet to run across anyone who would actually talk about it with true passion and love in their words, with true deep appreciation of its quality - the kind that's expressed through geekiness of their words which describe their show's characters, arcs and storylines. But with RoP not really... The most elaborate stuff is just people talking pure Tolkien (not Amazon) and then they project it onto the show (which got all these things done backward!) while at the same time avoiding discussion about storylines/characterization/writing, but that's... hardly a honest essay. And the other bunch would be people just consuming in silence, with occasional shipping excitement in a few sentences, excited about characters because they found something cute in them or simply... captivated by the fantasy vistas (but that's mainly due to being starved for "high fantasy itch," not because of the show as a whole, and this brings us back to point 1 raised - we don't have any high fantasy not even decent fantasy! and they would rather mess up a great story of Second Age they got the rights to for billions than write a good high fantasy original story of their own and that's telling, that's a huge problem)

[Milliebobbie]

Soooo……how does this explain the lost Silmaril in a tree idea? That is not “adding their own stuff”, it’s a blatant change in lore.

Just my view on what has people so angry about this show; There was a chance to revisit the world that so many hold very dear. They have spent decades reading the works of Tolkien. The visual representation of certain areas and characters can, understandably, be different in each other’s imagination but the changing of facts, concepts and the core of the original works is just plain disrespectful.

That's it exactly.

And the changes make it neither a better story or TV show. Much worse, in fact, than it could've been.

Bad form by the writers, producers and most of all Amazon which have only continued to show that creativity isn't their strong suit in non-tech areas.

[Daeborn]

So if some of you think this show is ok. Then Amazon made an expensive mistake buying and adding the Tolkien logo on it.
They could have created their own world and populated it how they wanted. And maybe get a 50% rating, or better.

But I think its lazy writing where they use the actors skin color and gender as a publicity stunt and shield.

[DavidmeetHal]

But I think its lazy writing where they use the actors skin color and gender as a publicity stunt and shield.

And they don’t try to hide it either.

I think they would have done a lot better if they would have made their own IP.

[Radhruin_EU]

I think they would have done a lot better if they would have made their own IP.

Can you imagine trying to launch a new IP with that level of writing? It'd tank.

[DavidmeetHal]

Can you imagine trying to launch a new IP with that level of writing? It'd tank.

That’s a good point.

[Polymachos]

a. I actually invented a world years ago, simply because I needed to distract myself from a dire situation that I could not run away from.

b. Upper Echelon Gamers has published his review on the series, and his verdict is 2/10

reason: Not only that they ignored Tolkien, they wasted gigantic amounts of money on a series of plotholes, illogical stuff, and utter nonsense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vH8OXcs8pg


Greetings, Polymachos