Goodbye to LOTRO

[Jeroen4593]

Who throwing who when members of community can't complete single solo instance and delete characters in result? It's not like SSG broke that instances, rewriting codes who nothing with players who don't have any desire to understand gameplay or put any efforts into playing game. Yes, MMO not that simple and most of them have deep systems.

Understand “gameplay”? That’s a very subjective notion. Please don’t prescribe your own view of it to others.

[Elmagor]

It's not a "solo instance," it's a BB and those are very different. The shortcut was added to HD because it was not possible for the vast majority of players to solo the dike. The MT ones aren't easy for many. Actual instances, in case you hadn't noticed, are optional so casual players can enjoy Middle Earth. That's one way you hang onto casual players. MT BB's aren't optional and aren't casual. Rather than whine that everyone isn't like you, attempt to understand business and realize SSG really does need more people such as the guy who is quitting in order to keep the game going. Whales only do that for a short time but it's not sustainable.

BB have solo/duo mode, so you can consider that as solo instance. And I talking about solo instance in Linhir too. Pelargir more easy then Dike because place more tiny and you can see everything without running around. No one expect you complete Pelargir with platinum medal on first try, but it can be doable and even bronze allow you complete epic quest and go forward

If you have problem with BB that doesn't means what vast majority have problems with them. Helm's Deep shortcut was welcomed not only because BB was "hard". They wasn't such hard, but they wasn't end game content anymore and takes too much time to complete. People don't want to waste so much time with such less amount of rewards.

[Seglord]

It's not a "solo instance," it's a BB and those are very different. The shortcut was added to HD because it was not possible for the vast majority of players to solo the dike.

The shortcut was added because of the MASS EXODUS of the playerbase, who wanted to play their own character, not some prescribed engineer, commander, catapult. stupid UI game. that was long. extensive, and a huge turnoff.

[TesalionLortus]

The OP actually quit for different reason entirely than the Epic Battle, if you follow the thread more closely. No reason for everyone to turn it into "hate BB" thread. And yeah, Phantion above is right where the biggest problem with those lie, but I think they should just give everyone bonus trait points at start, some buffs, or something... wouldn't that be simple enough solution? Also, a tutorial gotta be there somewhere likely to find, maybe offer it under Epic Battles menu, where all other battles can be chosen and run from. Small tweaks that can help and if they're not too overly punishing/difficult - with a tutorial and bonus points attached - these can actually be fun/immersive to run. (For those who participate in these big battle moments of the story for the first time, I'm not talking about satisfying altoholics who are bothered because they take too long).

Nor do I support the idea that the game can never have a brand new system. That's silly. The game needs some variety. It's been enough of "click and battle" footmen as it is for 15 years straight.

Turbine / SSG decided it was an unpopular system and not to invest in it further, just as they did mounted combat. With mounted combat, it was simple enough to just stop making MC mobs and keep it to regular mobs in the landscape.

And when exactly did they decide that? When exactly was the opportunity to create an Epic Battle tossed aside because the system wasn't popular or when was mounted tossed aside where it actually felt like it belonged to? The answer is never. Epic battles just lost their utility after MT, being suited just for sieges, and we didn't really have any such proper sieges with defense on the walls afterwards. As for mounted, the only opportunity they ever had after Gondor was maybe for warg raiders out of Gundabad, which initially happened only as a bug/unintended, but this wouldn't exactly stick either way, due to the difficult terrain in the Vales, so wouldn't be a good idea. Sieges we don't need going forward, I guess, and everything can be handled by good landscape design like Pelennor/Azanulbizar/Three Peaks. But mounted enemies I expect to see in Harad/Rhun, at least to some extent. Only then we'll see whether SSG actually tossed it aside because of some complainers - and not everyone hates mounted... - or whether they actually take a good look at it and bring it back in some way because the idea of no horse riders in these organized kingdoms of Rhun/Harad known for some of their cavalry is just plain silly/a waste of potential. Not to mention horses, camels and such... should be useful for crossing deserts and vast distances of these kingdoms, and even utilized by some bandits I guess.

BBs . . . yeah, they all need a by-pass mechanism because they got tossed by the wayside for some pretty valid reasons. They're a niche thing like PVMP - an absolute blast if you love it and an absolute slog if you can't stand it. No one's forced to PVMP or raid when doing the Epic- and that's how it should be - and the same should be true for BB's IMHO.

And here I absolutely disagree. The idea of circumventing all epic battles would be like wanting to erase mounted combat and warsteeds in Rohan. The battle in the epic battle is like the essential factor what they're supposed to convey in those moments of the story, just like the warsteeds are there for a reason because otherwise how would you convey the horselord culture/vibes? Now, in theory, I could agree with you... assuming MoL has the time and the team to make them more bombastic and heavy on the military factor than how the storied tales turned out, so more along the line of the Pelennor/Azanulbizar and the like, and more content/interaction, so the experience actually takes some time. Now, he definitely tried with these storied tales and they do use some more modern approach to things, but still... good enough as a shortcut, not good enough as that long experience of a dreadful siege at night - the latter would require more work/resources put into them but this exact experience is already provided by the Epic Battle system, so it should just be streamlined, like I suggested above.

I wish the OP well - am sorry it ended up like this. Let's hope SSG can look at this cautionary tale and learn from it!

I feel for the OP but hopefully not Since they quit due to solo instance (Blood for Blood quest), in the end, and that really shouldn't be that much of a problem. Plus, personal tastes regarding the type of stories being told, where they essentially weren't as interested in actual military/battle aspects of the story. I really don't wanna see every single solo turned into one shoot everything type of deal, nor for them to resign from decent military campaigns/warlike aspects of storytelling.

[TesalionLortus]

What SSG needs to do about Epic Battles is to revamp them into some simplified story mode so people can go through them with zero effort. What SSG needs to do about War Steeds is to make them useless - just keep the quest where you get yours, but after that make it so you don't need to use a War Steed to fight mounted mobs - the mounted mobs should be reprogrammed to stay in place and to try to get into melee range with you and never move, if you move out of melee range - they come back into melee range and stop there.

I agree about Battles. It's pretty much along the same lines I just suggested above. Maybe give people free trait points at the start and let them buff themselves. Have the tutorial more available. Make it clear using siege engines is optional and actually not as useful on solo.

Hell no about mounted... the entire charm of it is that enemies *do* move around across these large planes and that it's *so dynamic.* I love this. This is one thing that actually makes it immersive and different. Huge no to mobs just standing in place like dumbasses, without charging at you. (This is why I also say huge no to all the "smartasses" who say "mounted is not needed because we have mounted wargs from Moria that aren't mounted combat") Seriously, you hate it as much, then just move on and don't play mounted enemy quests, problem solved. Run into XP roadblock there but wanna do landscape? Ask the devs to take down daily task limits on XP... and maybe they could make turning-in tasks more comfortable while they're at it..

[Jeroen4593]

The OP actually quit for different reason entirely than the Epic Battle, if you follow the thread more closely. (…) Since they quit due to solo instance (Blood for Blood quest), in the end, and that really shouldn't be that much of a problem..

As the OP, I feel qualified to comment. This is not true. I actually did quit because of the Epic Battle at Pelargir, not because I did not like the way Linhir played out.

The reason being that Pelargir was (a) a slog, (b) did nothing for me (c), and most importantly, that for me it felt very unfair to be confronted, unexpectedly, with a whole new type of encounter at such an advanced state of the game. A wall, as others have correctly called it. It felt as the breaking of a promise, or silent agreement. And life can do that to you, but I don’t want a game I love to do that to me.

Blood for Blood just tipped the scales for me to decide that enough was enough. Without Pelargir I would just have tried again.

[TesalionLortus]

As the OP, I feel qualified to comment. This is not true. I actually did quit because of the Epic Battle at Pelargir, not because I did not like the way Linhir played out.

The reason being that Pelargir was (a) a slog, (b) did nothing for me (c), and most importantly, that for me it felt very unfair to be confronted, unexpectedly, with a whole new type of encounter at such an advanced state of the game. A wall, as others have correctly called it. It felt as the breaking of a promise, or silent agreement. And life can do that to you, but I don’t want a game I love to do that to me.

Blood for Blood just tipped the scales for me to decide no longer to put up with it. Without Pelargir I would just have tried again.

Blood for Blood was the tipping point then. Which is what I said but a lot of people offered help here, so most likely you would be able to deal with Pelargir pretty easily. (Though I was mistaken because I thought maybe you did Pelargir and then quit because of Linhir, my bad). Anyway, all I'm saying is to some of us actual variety in the game is nice too, so it's not exactly one-size-fits-all and "the devs should just get rid of all these different things or any sort of difficulty" because that's certainly not an ideal solution. I guess is not exactly possible to have "skip" quest button that autocompletes problematic moments, but if anything was supposed to be done about it, then I guess the "shortened account" like with session plays is a way to go.

[ertr]

Do I understand correctly that even if I overcome this Epic Battle thing, in the future I will have to do raids with a group/fellowship involving heavy fighting? No way around it if I want to finish the epic story?

Just following the Epic questline never requires playing with a group. The story however requires it in several places - many of which you have already passed.

For example, back in Volume I, Book 5 of the Epic you interrupt a gauntlord trying to raise a dead dragon before he can establish control over it. That undead dragon is then never mentioned in the Epic, so what happened to it? To find out, and make sure it is properly dead again you need to run the Helegrod raid.
Same in many other places - storylines from the Epic questline lead into dungeons or raids, but you don't have to do them just to follow the Epic questline.

[LagunaD2]

The shortcut was added because of the MASS EXODUS of the playerbase

No it wasn't.

It was added during a mass INFLUX, in the middle of the pandemic lockdowns...

[Halphast]

Pelargir was (a) a slog, (b) did nothing for me (c), and most importantly, that for me it felt very unfair to be confronted, unexpectedly, with a whole new type of encounter .

I'm really sorry it came to that. Epic Battles in general are divisive- some people enjoy them, many absolutely hate them. The "Storied Tales" which allow you to skip Helm's Deep EBs were a great idea to allow people some choice in the matter- but with Pelargir/Minas Tirith not having Storied Tales, they are the new roadblock for some people, where previously it was Helm's Dike.

Maybe it's hard for older players to understand, because we were forced to do the Helm's Deep EB cluster, after which Pelargir isn't too bad. But by that point we understood the system. Nowadays from the perspective of someone who's new like you, it shines a light on the problem caused by only having Storied Tales in Helm's Deep. Pelargir suddenly forces you into a mechanic you hadn't necessarily done before, with no tutorial at that location to help.

[LagunaD2]

I think two people - even without any promotion points or understanding of "new mechanics" - should be able to complete Pelargir in two tries.

Maybe you get caught off guard your first time, but having seen it once, two people should be able to kill everything required for completion using just normal class abilities.

[Jeroen4593]

Nowadays from the perspective of someone who's new like you, it shines a light on the problem caused by only having Storied Tales in Helm's Deep. Pelargir suddenly forces you into a mechanic you hadn't necessarily done before, with no tutorial at that location to help.

That explains a lot. Missing out both on experience and on knowledge in a new and complex setting makes life difficult indeed. (Not to mention that, if I understand this thread well, my Elf Hunter was not the best character to survive this type of encounter. Is that true? Do certain races/classes have a substantial extra handicap here, and how "fair" would that be?)

Am I too optimistic in assuming that the reason they developed Storied Tales to allow avoiding the Epic Battle at Helm's Deep is equally valid for Pelargir, and then also for Minas Tirith? And that the development of Storied Tales to Helm's Deep could be just the first phase in an effort to bring them also to Pelargir and Minas Tirith as an alternative? That would be broadly supported, if this thread is anything to go by. Now that would be good news.

Is there any way to know how the developers feel about this and what their plans are?

[MadeofLions]

Is there any way to know how the developers feel about this and what their plans are?

Yep, you just ask.

I fully support the principle of doing Storied Tales for the other Epic Battles, but given how busy things are at the moment (and honestly, how busy things always are) there isn't really the bandwidth to make them, so it's not a pet project I can really get behind for now.

MoL

[Belnavar]

Personally, I really liked Epic Battles, though there were some rough points at launch, and I think most of them could do with being a little shorter, maybe with the ability to spawn the next wave if you're ready early. I do understand why some don't like them, but one of the things that has always attracted me about this game is the sheer variety of content and systems in place, so you can never really get bored. The new roles in Epic Battles added a lot to the experience, in my opinion, and I think SSG did a great job capturing the feel of the major battles and sieges of the books.

If someone plans to leave after encountering a single thing they don't like, then all I can say is: good luck finding a game that ticks all the boxes for you. While it would be ideal to have a Storied Tales option for the Gondor Epic Battles, I don't know why someone who is enjoying the story and content for the first time wouldn't want to at least experience this, even if it wasn't something they wanted to revisit or farm later (which you definitely don't need to do, especially with the trait points changes in BtS). I get that sometimes being thrown into the deep end of a new system can be overwhelming, but Epic Battles can be fun, and even if you don't find them to be, they're such a very small part of a very big game.

-Bel

[TesalionLortus]

I fully support the principle of doing Storied Tales for the other Epic Battles, but given how busy things are at the moment (and honestly, how busy things always are) there isn't really the bandwidth to make them, so it's not a pet project I can really get behind for now.

MoL

How about giving a free amount of bonus trait points to everyone who is already at the right level to run Epic Battles, though a simple autobestowed quest or something like that. You can do it right now. One quest. (Well, maybe not today, not tomorrow, but you get it - shouldn't be too long to make). Because that's the biggest roadblock that prevents them all from being run as a "story mode" in the first place - and makes them grindy/a bigger learning curve but they don't need to be. You're free to choose your pet projects of course but sometimes you guys ignore such easy, straightforward solutions in favor of this "maybe in a few years there will be time for this bigger project" Just give everyone some trait points boost for the start and players will be able to deal with them right now, no one will quit because of them, regardless of storied tales being available or not

The new roles in Epic Battles added a lot to the experience, in my opinion, and I think SSG did a great job capturing the feel of the major battles and sieges of the books.

While it would be ideal to have a Storied Tales option for the Gondor Epic Battles, I don't know why someone who is enjoying the story and content for the first time wouldn't want to at least experience this, even if it wasn't something they wanted to revisit or farm later (which you definitely don't need to do, especially with the trait points changes in BtS). I get that sometimes being thrown into the deep end of a new system can be overwhelming, but Epic Battles can be fun, and even if you don't find them to be, they're such a very small part of a very big game.

Exactly.

[wispsong]

How about giving a free amount of bonus trait points to everyone who is already at the right level to run Epic Battles, though a simple autobestowed quest or something like that. You can do it right now. One quest. (Well, maybe not today, not tomorrow, but you get it - shouldn't be too long to make). Because that's the biggest roadblock that prevents them all from being run as a "story mode" in the first place - and makes them grindy/a bigger learning curve but they don't need to be. You're free to choose your pet projects of course but sometimes you guys ignore such easy, straightforward solutions in favor of this "maybe in a few years there will be time for this bigger project" Just give everyone some trait points boost for the start and players will be able to deal with them right now, no one will quit because of them, regardless of storied tales being available or not







Exactly.

The problem is the time commitment required to for the most part get a fail. My hunter has lots of trait-points in EB, I still can't do them solo. They are for me a fail. Who wants to learn a new mechanic and strategy for one quest? Pelagir is also unique in that it is an offensive battle. Since it can be done way before the story something like the books for session play could be enough. MT could be shortened to one battle for the interim, still way to long.

[TesalionLortus]

The problem is the time commitment required to for the most part get a fail. My hunter has lots of trait-points in EB, I still can't do them solo. They are for me a fail. Who wants to learn a new mechanic and strategy for one quest?

It's a few times. It's not some massive time commitment. And the time commitment during 2 most important sieges in the War of the Ring... sounds about right. That's what they're good at where the storied tales fail - the immersion of lengthy war/siege. Storied tale plays a bit more like a session play or one of those solo instance strolls through a small camp of the enemies. It has some surrounding climate but... it's quickly over before you know it, doesn't have that same weight. So I would never recommend anyone a storied tale for their first playthrough if they care about story as in full storyline immersion.

I'm still so grumpy MoL calls them "storied tales" if we talk storytelling factors. 2 different synonyms for a story word, a cool name perhaps but not very clear what it is, and as if actual epic battles didn't have story elements in them - they do, and they do have some nice ones at that too. Should be less confusing and called something like "shortened battle tale" The word "shortened" conveying the fact it's much shorter and "battle tale" indicating it might be an extra tale framed during a battle but not exactly a battle itself with all heaviness on the ramps and endless waves that a siege battle entails.

Anyway, you're not wrong. I guess he could merge MT into one tale. Still, it would be fair if the trait points were also given as suggested, so if one wants to choose epic battle they have the easier time of it, not like now. And rename them to "shortened battle tales" so it's more obvious what's the difference between the two, MoL :P

If you didn't spend your points on something useless like siege tree, I think it shouldn't be too hard to do? No extra objectives, just giving commands as soon as they're refreshed, maybe get rid of some ladders. Unless it's Pelargir, that one is a bit harder and always was more annoying.

[Michaleo]

Most of us have parts of this large, complex, evolving game we'd rather not do. Fortunately, a kinmate summoned me to complete The Beacon of Eaworth. I wasted HOURS over multiple days to complete the Resupplying the Line tight-rope walk.

A solution that has been used for other things in the game would be to allow you to buy your way out of a quest. Have a button next to Cancel that for some amount of Mithril Coins will complete the quest. Not necessarily for all quests, but especially for those that are blocking progress in important quest lines like the Epic.

[Seglord]

No it wasn't.

It was added during a mass INFLUX, in the middle of the pandemic lockdowns...

I didn't say when it was added, I commented on why, there was a mass exodus after HD came out, they probably added storied tales. so as to not discourage new players during that influx, so they wouldn't quit too.

It was a poorly received expansion, released at the same time, that they made trait trees, that went over terribly at the time. and with these new trait trees added, you were thrown into a cheap ui push button different character. so you didn't even get to play your character until you learned and finished a system that was long and boring for a lot. the actual quests of the area were often uninspired clean up tables, and find some commodity, for a no name farmer.

but I could see why someone gets up to that point where you have to do them, and since you storied tale the HD, you are truly unprepared for the Pelargir, and MT big battles stuff, that makes one want to quit.

If you loved HD, good on you, I'm not begrudging you, A lot of people hated it enough to quit tho.

Edited to say , oh yah and SSG announced they were getting out of the Raid business to cater to the interactive story book, festival people. that was all good timing, a perfect storm for an exodus

[wispsong]

It's a few times. It's not some massive time commitment. And the time commitment during 2 most important sieges in the War of the Ring... sounds about right. That's what they're good at where the storied tales fail - the immersion of lengthy war/siege. Storied tale plays a bit more like a session play or one of those solo instance strolls through a small camp of the enemies. It has some surrounding climate but... it's quickly over before you know it, doesn't have that same weight. So I would never recommend anyone a storied tale for their first playthrough if they care about story as in full storyline immersion.

I'm still so grumpy MoL calls them "storied tales" if we talk storytelling factors. 2 different synonyms for a story word, a cool name perhaps but not very clear what it is, and as if actual epic battles didn't have story elements in them - they do, and they do have some nice ones at that too. Should be less confusing and called something like "shortened battle tale" The word "shortened" conveying the fact it's much shorter and "battle tale" indicating it might be an extra tale framed during a battle but not exactly a battle itself with all heaviness on the ramps and endless waves that a siege battle entails.

Anyway, you're not wrong. I guess he could merge MT into one tale. Still, it would be fair if the trait points were also given as suggested, so if one wants to choose epic battle they have the easier time of it, not like now. And rename them to "shortened battle tales" so it's more obvious what's the difference between the two, MoL :P

If you didn't spend your points on something useless like siege tree, I think it shouldn't be too hard to do? No extra objectives, just giving commands as soon as they're refreshed, maybe get rid of some ladders. Unless it's Pelargir, that one is a bit harder and always was more annoying.

One time through HD winning all battles first time takes hours, I spent hours on just one battle never finishing it a few years ago and after that I never even tried again. These battles are a different game. I can do without immersion here. Even in the movies both battles don't take as much time as one in the game.

I try to do Pel when my kin is forming a group but that normally is way before I get to the story so very disconnected anyways.

Pelennor for me is far more immersing although I never get to play the instances when questing through. At least I play my character.

[TesalionLortus]

These battles are a different game.

Not really though. Still same things, can fight mobs as usual, interact with objects as usual. But there is something new, since you can command the soldiers, as an experienced hero you are, helping out Aragorn and others organize the defense. That was actually something interesting and refreshing. Never really happened again and the devs consistently miss opportunities to give our hero well-deserved agency and prestige like that, either though some mechanics or just storytelling. Usually we're back to being some second-rate helper, hey do my chores, gather these things for me, or do the tactics but the ones I, the random somebody, had planned and you're just my puppet to accomplish them. So I wish we had more of such "authority" sometimes 140 levels in...

[DavidmeetHal]

I said it before, and I'll say it again, a mandatory BB for the epic storyline is just stupid. You should not have to learn new mechanics like engineering and such to advance one quest in the main story line. It's just plain dumb. And BB's can be long too.

I did it one time a long time ago, and I've skipped it on every alt since then. It's a shame, because I am actually interested in the main story.

[Arnenna]

Yep, you just ask.

I fully support the principle of doing Storied Tales for the other Epic Battles, but given how busy things are at the moment (and honestly, how busy things always are) there isn't really the bandwidth to make them, so it's not a pet project I can really get behind for now.

MoL

Appreciate how busy you all are. The thing is though, newer players, especially now since we have storied tales through the Helm's deep epic battles, find themselves unable to pass the Gondor battles. They have zero points, because storied tales don't provide any, which is fair enough, and no experience of how the battles work. This is another one of those instances where the game is putting a block on the story and as usual, players lose their flow. If there isn't enough time to create storied tales for the rest of the Epic battles, just add a skip button. Players can just click that option, get a bit of dialogue, see the final cutscene, to get the story ending, and then move onto the next part of the story. Both MT battles are long winded, even for players with full EB experience and points. There needs to be a skip function where players can continue the story.

[Jeroen4593]

Appreciate how busy you all are. (...) If there isn't enough time to create storied tales for the rest of the Epic battles, just add a skip button. Players can just click that option, get a bit of dialogue, see the final cutscene, to get the story ending, and then move onto the next part of the story. Both MT battles are long winded, even for players with full EB experience and points. There needs to be a skip function where players can continue the story.

I for one would be perfectly content with that.

[DavidmeetHal]

Appreciate how busy you all are. The thing is though, newer players, especially now since we have storied tales through the Helm's deep epic battles, find themselves unable to pass the Gondor battles. They have zero points, because storied tales don't provide any, which is fair enough, and no experience of how the battles work. This is another one of those instances where the game is putting a block on the story and as usual, players lose their flow. If there isn't enough time to create storied tales for the rest of the Epic battles, just add a skip button. Players can just click that option, get a bit of dialogue, see the final cutscene, to get the story ending, and then move onto the next part of the story. Both MT battles are long winded, even for players with full EB experience and points. There needs to be a skip function where players can continue the story.

agreed totally about a skip button.